#gamedesign

SorenJohnson Hey Denis, if you put the narrative in front of the gameplay, you are no longer making a game. You're making a movie. http://bit.ly/193Qdz
Thu Jul 16 21:17:01 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Where does neighborhood "cops and robbers" fall on this binary scale of game or movie?
Thu Jul 16 21:20:48 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 am I missing something? what would make playing cops & robbers a movie?
Thu Jul 16 21:35:53 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Cops and robbers is mostly fantasy, lacking many formal rules, victory conditions, etc. Never played one of his games, btw.
Thu Jul 16 21:47:50 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 Indeed, I think 'play' is just as important as 'game' in the term gameplay. Neither part, however, is 'narrative'...
Thu Jul 16 21:54:19 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Drop7 is a good game. Moon is a good movie. Cops and Robbers is something in between, no?
Thu Jul 16 21:56:02 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 Actually, if I were to put it on a continuum, I would put C&R at one extreme and Moon on the other, in terms the audience's role
Thu Jul 16 22:03:07 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson A lot of our play isn't formal enough to be called a game. It's experiential. Narrative + Gameplay = Experiential-focused.
Thu Jul 16 21:47:01 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 I'm not trying to argue that 'narrative is bad.' He predicts that "gameplay will diminish" which, to me, cannot describe a game.
Thu Jul 16 21:59:51 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson "Gameplay will diminish" would be a bad outcome. But I believe it's the intermingling of the 2 that's powerful.
Thu Jul 16 22:03:47 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 Games should have narrative elements, definitely (think Pirates!, for example) and the less fixed the story, the better.
Thu Jul 16 22:07:01 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Agreed about Pirates and less fixed story.
Thu Jul 16 22:08:31 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson @ClickNothing IMO huge difference between direct linear authorship and indirect authorship.
Thu Jul 16 22:10:20 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
loonyboi @SorenJohnson He's a little blunt, but he has a point. For certain games, the experience is more important than the pure gameplay.
Thu Jul 16 21:28:37 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @loonyboi the experience is the reason to go see a movie. Just because I'm sitting on a couch holding a controller doesn't make it a "game."
Thu Jul 16 21:37:06 +0000 2009 in reply to loonyboi
manveerheir Well I can finally say why I've been super excited at work for the last 2 weeks. I'm officially the Lead Designer on the new project. WOOHOO
Thu Jul 16 21:25:47 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @manveerheir Congrats! You must be happy! http://bit.ly/2QR4zz
Thu Jul 16 22:18:16 +0000 2009 in reply to manveerheir
ClickNothing @manveerheir congratulations Manveer!
Thu Jul 16 21:53:26 +0000 2009 in reply to manveerheir
ibogost @bpm140 what pain sufferst thou?
Thu Jul 16 21:34:53 +0000 2009 in reply to bpm140
ibogost Ontological problem: what is a fajita? Is it the thing you make from the fixings, or is it the set of fixings as such?
Thu Jul 16 21:44:57 +0000 2009
djaffe Can anyone tell me if FORCE UNLEASHED is worth playing? Loved the demo but the first level of real game felt shit. Does it get good?
Thu Jul 16 21:48:28 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @djaffe I really liked the fiction, but was sorely disappointed by the gameplay.
Thu Jul 16 21:49:39 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
ClickNothing RT @SorenJohnson if you put the narrative in front of the gameplay, you're not making a game. You're making a movie. http://bit.ly/193Qdz
Thu Jul 16 21:55:19 +0000 2009
gtez @ClickNothing Oh Really...
Thu Jul 16 21:57:47 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
ClickNothing @gtez no, not really - I was RTing Soren
Thu Jul 16 22:03:05 +0000 2009 in reply to gtez
gtez @ClickNothing I'm totally the opposite - I think we can't make games without a narrative anymore. That narrative might be player driven
Thu Jul 16 22:22:32 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
ClickNothing @gtez agreed - I am specifically reject 'designer authored narrative' - bu7t with 140 ch limit, it's hard to be specific
Thu Jul 16 22:24:13 +0000 2009 in reply to gtez
xemu Anticipating both the NPD numbers and the start of the Robot open house!
Thu Jul 16 21:57:14 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @Harvey1966 I see Cops/Robbers as simply play. Games & movies are both media artifacts with some amount of authorship. Cops/Robbers is none
Thu Jul 16 21:59:37 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson Cops and Robbers has predefined roles and the players carry a lot of the narrative fantasy in their heads.
Thu Jul 16 22:02:50 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
ibogost Hahaha @ibogost I checked Badiou's BEING AND FAJITA, and it's just whatever you decide to "count as fajita." :) (via @afeeld)
Thu Jul 16 22:01:20 +0000 2009
djaffe Cool- thanx for the reviews ya'll. Looks like it's CALL OF JAUREZ this weekend! Oooh, and next week this time= COMIC CON! SWEET!
Thu Jul 16 22:02:00 +0000 2009
ClickNothing And, no, gameplay is not 'everything' - but I refute Dyack's claim that it is not the most important thing.
Thu Jul 16 22:05:06 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing I hear you, but I think that's a meaningless refute. Because gameplay combines mechanics and narrative fantasy usually.
Thu Jul 16 22:09:23 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson My reaction was against the binary "game or movie." It's a scale: Go-Chess-Civ-FC2-COD-Myst-Moon.
Thu Jul 16 22:07:21 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 @ClickNothing but Myst is called a "game" not a "movie." My point is that maybe it should be the other way around.
Thu Jul 16 22:10:19 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
bbrathwaite @SorenJohnson @harvey1966 @clicknothing @xemu Myst wasn't formally a game. The strongest narratives are experienced, not told.
Thu Jul 16 22:21:37 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @bbrathwaite @sorenJohnson @harvey1966 @clicknothing clearly we need a #gamedesign hash tag or something to coordinate. :)
Thu Jul 16 22:23:09 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @xemu @sorenjohnson @harvey1966 @clicknothing Good call. I'm for it. Best design convo on twitter so far. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:25:25 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
ClickNothing @Harvey1966 yeah, I dislike binary model also. But I think, if making games, *meaning* should be in Go-like bits, not Moon-like bits
Thu Jul 16 22:10:21 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson @Xemu: I think the meaning is wherever players feel it. Little Sisters made me cry; screw the economic analysis.
Thu Jul 16 22:14:09 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
xemu @Harvey1966 Sure, but some meaning is derived from player, others derived from the author(s). Little Sisters weren't that way by accident.
Thu Jul 16 22:16:30 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
ClickNothing else just make a movie...
Thu Jul 16 22:10:53 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson @Xemu: Shit. Now @ChessTweets is following me on Twitter. "I parley with the Queen instead of attacking her."
Thu Jul 16 22:12:32 +0000 2009
ClickNothing I think we're all agreeing actually - just Twitter forces debate to be in unsupported fragments.
Thu Jul 16 22:13:57 +0000 2009
ibogost @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 one way around the conflict is to think about levels of fiction instead of narrative
Thu Jul 16 22:15:10 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ibogost Explain that a little more, will you?
Thu Jul 16 22:26:09 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
ibogost @bbrathwaite fiction need not be narrated. There are mechanics, systems that engage/characterize fictional worlds or ideas.
Thu Jul 16 22:43:22 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
Harvey1966 @ibogost Production & consumer expectation often eats up so many resources that experiments in these directions can't happen. :( #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:47:02 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
xemu @Harvey1966 @ibogost #gamedesign feels like we are hitting diminishing returns on that sort of thing though, so I am hopeful for future...
Thu Jul 16 22:48:18 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @ibogost @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson @Xemu: Heavy on character and setting, as light as possible on plot. Those are not mechanics though.
Thu Jul 16 22:17:22 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
xemu Cute girl now wandering our biergarten dispensing soft pretzels. IMO this should be a permanent addition to Robot offices.
Thu Jul 16 22:18:04 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson #dyackrant I usually try to separate "theme" from "story". If something could be called a spoiler, it doesn't belong in my games.
Thu Jul 16 22:18:16 +0000 2009
xemu @SorenJohnson #dyackrant I'd say the characters in Alpha Centauri add tons but are 100% authorial -- just with great synergy to gameplay
Thu Jul 16 22:21:48 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @SorenJohnson #dyackrant Not to go further afield though but surely exploration & surprise are not limited to narrative linear games?
Thu Jul 16 22:19:43 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
Harvey1966 @Harvey1966: Haha, now someone from economics is following me. What will happen if I mention "law enforcement?"
Thu Jul 16 22:20:40 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @Harvey1966 I once twittered this: "time to stop being anal over the use of 'begging the question'" Guess what happened...
Thu Jul 16 22:20:44 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Haha, awesome.
Thu Jul 16 22:21:51 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
ClickNothing I see Soren's stance as 'purist': narrative does not belong. By contrast, I'm 'idealist' - I feel games can be better with minimal narrative
Thu Jul 16 22:21:01 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing Hell, yeah. I think there's a place for Go, but Chess engages another part of my mind w/ fiction. RPGs take that even further.
Thu Jul 16 22:23:03 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
SorenJohnson #dyackrant Indeed, many people lose interest in Civ once they "uncover the black"
Thu Jul 16 22:21:48 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @harvey1966 I feel the strongest narratives are pre-chunked rulesets to assist the world interaction, conflict and set plyr expectations.
Thu Jul 16 22:24:41 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite For me, it's character/setting/situation + dynamics. Like the Thief servant I "knocked out" drowning while I hid from guards.
Thu Jul 16 22:26:57 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
xemu @SorenJohnson LOL@ Blackmap :) what I mean though is there is a sense of magic in my first playthru of a new civ that is never there again
Thu Jul 16 22:24:47 +0000 2009
ClickNothing #gamedesign now we get to discuss the nuances of design in 128 characters or less :)
Thu Jul 16 22:26:45 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite followers - great design convo going on between @xemu @sorenjohnson @harvey1966 @clicknothing @ibogost. I am late to the party. Follow them.
Thu Jul 16 22:27:30 +0000 2009
ClickNothing #gamedesign to anyone following me - here are others in this debate: @bbrathwaite @xemu @sorenjohnson @harvey1966 @gtez
Thu Jul 16 22:28:17 +0000 2009
xemu IMO the non-interactive cutscene is just another kind of content reward we can use. It is not inherently good/evil #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:28:27 +0000 2009
xemu That is , clearly some games rely on it heavily and IMO they can be powerful (in a diff way) than those that are "pure" #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:29:16 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson #gamedesign Narrative elements (Sister Miriam from SMAC) are great, but please don't reveal something halfway through that can't change
Thu Jul 16 22:29:28 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @Harvey1966: Check out the fun #gamedesign conversation with @xemu, @ClickNothing, @bbrathwaite, @SorenJohnson, @meathelix. Pop eats itself.
Thu Jul 16 22:32:07 +0000 2009
ClickNothing #gamedesign @xemu agreed - but millions of games and movies move me through authored narrative ...
Thu Jul 16 22:32:36 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson #gamedesign er, I meant, "is always the same" not necessarily "can't change"
Thu Jul 16 22:33:09 +0000 2009
xemu @SorenJohnson #gamedesign but as a thought experiment what is inherently bad about a secret backstory for Sister Miriam?
Thu Jul 16 22:35:36 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @xemu #gamedesign fair enough - it depends on how much it impacts the actual game. SMAC shouldn't get old. Not what Denis meant, though...
Thu Jul 16 22:39:23 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
xemu @SorenJohnson #design Yeah, I can't defend the apparent thesis extreme of "Dragons Lair = ultimate form of all gaming".
Thu Jul 16 22:43:53 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @SorenJohnson #gamedesign Much harder problem obviously. :)
Thu Jul 16 22:34:47 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @SorenJohnson #gamedesign One of my personal holy grails is a game with same level of character dynamics fidelity as we give to guns today.
Thu Jul 16 22:34:30 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
ClickNothing #gamedesign @xemu - & so few move me as deeply through dynmcly driven 'narr elements' (ie: Sister Miriam) - I want 10k x more of that
Thu Jul 16 22:34:21 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite: Another fave example: Sadness when a male X-com soldier died because another had the same last name. (Married?) #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:35:00 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @Harvey1966 re X-Com soldiers... still reigning example of 'deeply moving dynmcly driven 'narr elements' - from >10yrs ago.. !!!
Thu Jul 16 22:38:37 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
SorenJohnson @ClickNothing #gamedesign ouch! Good point. Wish I had done more of that with Civ4 - dynamic events, local figures, cultural myths, etc.
Thu Jul 16 22:44:07 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
bbrathwaite @SorenJohnson #gamedesign I am glad you didn't do more of that. I think the player's emergent narrative is critical in building games.
Thu Jul 16 22:56:31 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @bbrathwaite #gamedesign ...but Civ needs some meat on the bone to create player stories. Like Jewish Aztecs or a Japanese War of the Roses
Thu Jul 16 23:03:05 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @SorenJohnson #gamedesign Yeah, I agree. Theme can act as pre-chunked ruleset. "It's a hostage situation" conveys a lot of poss. mechanics.
Thu Jul 16 23:05:36 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Energy we can leverage from pre-existing player knowledge = energy we can spend on building our own world
Thu Jul 16 23:08:15 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
xemu @SorenJohnson #gamedesign I see the events / quests from Civ 4 as a tiny baby step in that direction, for sure. Words are super evocative
Thu Jul 16 22:45:53 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
Harvey1966 @ClickNothing Well, the first buddy death in FC2 hit me pretty hard. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:39:39 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
xemu @Harvey1966 #gamedesign would've hit me much more if it hadn't happened "accidentally" to me. Inherent risk of indirect narrative control?
Thu Jul 16 22:41:22 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
xemu @Harvey1966 #design The interpretive lens of incomplete data is an awesome form of self-creativity. Character design by last name only. :)
Thu Jul 16 22:36:28 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
xemu @Harvey1966 #gamedesign Interpretive lens of incomplete data is an awesome form of self-creativity. Character design by last name only. :)
Thu Jul 16 22:36:53 +0000 2009
ClickNothing #gamedesign @xemu EXACTLY - but why even try it if we can put the compelling characters in authored narratives as good as hollywood movies?
Thu Jul 16 22:37:03 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson #gamedesign @ClickNothing That's a good way to put it.There is so much more unploughed ground for games without fixed narratives.
Thu Jul 16 22:37:29 +0000 2009
gtez @SorenJohnson #gamedesign Eve Online is CHALK FULL of player generated narrative.
Thu Jul 16 22:46:54 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @gtez #gamedesign ...and God bless them (EVE players) for making interesting stories that we can read about. Water can flow the other way.
Thu Jul 16 22:55:23 +0000 2009 in reply to gtez
JKeverne #gamedesign @ClickNothing But if those X-com characters were "written" as married, and my actions led to their death isn't that meaningful?
Thu Jul 16 22:40:43 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @JKeverne Also, players get excited when they realize they're in the hands of an uncaring system (not an author). #gamedesign #marcleblanc
Thu Jul 16 22:54:54 +0000 2009 in reply to JKeverne
Harvey1966 @JKeverne The X-com "marriages" felt more powerful, perhaps, because players imagined/created them; investment. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:51:33 +0000 2009 in reply to JKeverne
ClickNothing #gamedesign @Harvey1966 thx - but shame on us. 1 small step per decade is way too slow...buddy design could have been in circa 2003 shooter
Thu Jul 16 22:43:19 +0000 2009
ncroal @ClickNothing #gamedesign Daikatana had buddy characters back in 2000...
Thu Jul 16 22:48:02 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
bbrathwaite @ncroal #gamedesign yes, Daikatana did and other games in RPGs before than. In Daikatana, they had fleshed out PER, too. The AI killed them.
Thu Jul 16 22:58:57 +0000 2009 in reply to ncroal
Twylite1 @bbrathwaite move it closer to Austin? ;)
Thu Jul 16 22:43:27 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @Twylite1 You have been trying to get me to move to Austin for how many years now?
Thu Jul 16 22:47:21 +0000 2009 in reply to Twylite1
Twylite1 @bbrathwaite can you smell the bar b que? I'll save you a plate! ;)
Thu Jul 16 22:49:26 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @Twylite1 I am vegetarian now (really)
Thu Jul 16 22:50:51 +0000 2009 in reply to Twylite1
xemu @SorenJohnson #gamedesign Yeah, I can't defend the apparent thesis extreme of "Dragons Lair = ultimate form of all gaming". (damn hashtags!)
Thu Jul 16 22:44:20 +0000 2009
xemu #gamedesign and micro-narratives can be coherently integrated into a macro structure without trivializing them I theorize
Thu Jul 16 22:46:21 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @xemu #gamedesign King of Dragon Pass may someday be seen as prescient. With a better interface, its dynamic story could be very influential
Thu Jul 16 22:51:08 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
ClickNothing @xemu #gamedesign agreed on integrationist 'bottom-up' structure building. This is fascinating. But don't theorize... build! :)
Thu Jul 16 22:47:53 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
xemu #gamedesign Lots more steps beyond X-Com though: I have a self-generated narrative in San Andreas way more compelling than the linear one.
Thu Jul 16 22:47:12 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @xemu #gamedesign "Lots more steps beyond X-Com though" Fair enough, but 10 orders fewer 'more steps' than btwn X-Com's cinematics and MGS4s
Thu Jul 16 22:52:13 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
WyattEpp @xemu #gamedesign I don't believe UFO was intended to be an exemplar in that regard. Roguelikes (NetHack or Dwarf Fortress) may be, though.
Thu Jul 16 22:53:46 +0000 2009 in reply to xemu
Harvey1966 @WyattEpp WRT X-com, the authors' intentions are largely irrelevant there; players' ultimate perceptions matter more. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 22:56:13 +0000 2009 in reply to WyattEpp
xemu @WyattEpp #gamedesign Yeah, Dwarf Fortress is one of the biggest steps forward in dynamic story in a while IMO
Thu Jul 16 22:54:53 +0000 2009 in reply to WyattEpp
bbrathwaite Cutscenes as reward, strictly speaking, is ok. They are often used as a bridge, however, and that's when *desired* control is removed.
Thu Jul 16 22:52:00 +0000 2009
xemu @bbrathwaite #gamedesign I think a lot of that is because our sim fidelity for anything beyond killing stuff is so limited.
Thu Jul 16 22:53:19 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite #gamedesign @ClickNothing re buddy design - we spend 10x more time on pathing/ai/behaviour and less on dev'ing our attachment to buddy.
Thu Jul 16 22:55:18 +0000 2009
xemu @wyattEpp #gamedesign Too bad the UI and presentation are so utterly unapproachable. It's a game I'd love to make playable by humans.
Thu Jul 16 22:55:25 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @bbrathwaite #gamedesign - not entirely true. General AI stuff had to be done anyway, plus we *failed* 10x more with 'building attachment'
Thu Jul 16 22:57:56 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ClickNothing #gamedesign I think it is fair to say that we think of attachment in terms of the AI behavior.
Thu Jul 16 23:01:03 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite AI you can play with creates investment (FC2, Dog in HL2), but sometimes it's just repeat exposure (Paul Denton). #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:05:14 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
xemu @Harvey1966 #gamedesign Paul Denton = great example, I want to guess someone's true allegiance and have that be meaningful not scripted.
Thu Jul 16 23:10:06 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
bbrathwaite #gamedesign Cutscenes as reward is ok. They are often used as a bridge, however, and that's when *desired* control is removed.
Thu Jul 16 22:59:31 +0000 2009
djaffe @bbrathwaite If your game needs to reward people by giving them non interactive media as a reward, then your game is not good enough :)
Thu Jul 16 23:00:52 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @djaffe #gamedesign Good call. Some players, tho, they really like it. FWIW, I am not a fan of cutscenes. I count the nuke in Civ as good.
Thu Jul 16 23:03:30 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
bbrathwaite Holy hell. Now I am caught up.
Thu Jul 16 23:01:29 +0000 2009
ClickNothing RT @djaffe If your game needs to reward people by giving them non interactive media as a reward, then your game is not good enough :)
Thu Jul 16 23:01:44 +0000 2009
joezors @ClickNothing @djaffe Is the problem that those media rewards don't exist in the closed system of the game rules? Same w/ cool music+visuals
Thu Jul 16 23:06:18 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
djaffe @joezors sure, a movie playing in the world that YOU choose to stop and watch if you like? I got no issues with that...
Thu Jul 16 23:07:16 +0000 2009 in reply to joezors
joezors @djaffe I see: so despite being non-interactive in some sense, you're okay with Bioshock audio tapes but not MGS codec sequences?
Thu Jul 16 23:12:41 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @joezors the audio tapes are you making a choice to stop and listen...not a movie about your character stopping and listening....so yes :)
Thu Jul 16 23:16:12 +0000 2009 in reply to joezors
IanSchreiber @ClickNothing @djaffe That doesn't mean that adding noninteractive media as reward is necessarily bad, though, does it?
Thu Jul 16 23:03:03 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
djaffe @IanSchreiber Nothing is 'bad'; all subjective. My point is, we need to get to a point where our medium is strong enough to stand on its own
Thu Jul 16 23:05:47 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
ClickNothing @djaffe - we don't agree on lots of stuff - but on this I <3 david :)
Thu Jul 16 23:03:00 +0000 2009
ZPat @gameism @bbrathwaite #gamedesign You think, that the story has to evolve in players head, and he himself has to create answers 2 questions?
Thu Jul 16 23:03:59 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ZPat Unless you want to play Myst. Players need to make decisions in games and feel the consequences (good or bad) of those.
Thu Jul 16 23:06:45 +0000 2009 in reply to ZPat
SorenJohnson RT @djaffe If your game needs to reward people by giving them non interactive media as a reward, then your game is not good enough :)
Thu Jul 16 23:04:34 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 I now have to work til 8pm due to cool game design conv. Peace out, Bikram yoga class.
Thu Jul 16 23:07:21 +0000 2009
xemu #gamedesign @djaffe Our games are made of lots of non-interactive atoms though... I just don't understand the special hate for bigger ones
Thu Jul 16 23:07:22 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite FWIW, Train has no cutscenes. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:08:01 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @bbrathwaite #gamedesign likely even adding schindlers list wouldn't improve it
Thu Jul 16 23:11:56 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @ClickNothing It will be coming to Montreal for MIGs, btw.
Thu Jul 16 23:13:44 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
VRBones @djaffe does that include headshots in fallout 3? they are non-interactive demonstrations.
Thu Jul 16 23:08:05 +0000 2009
djaffe @VRBones Good question-it's ok 4 me cause the time between my action and the response is so fast that it FEELS like it's part of the play...
Thu Jul 16 23:10:01 +0000 2009 in reply to VRBones
xemu #gamedesign Blade Runner also prescient?
Thu Jul 16 23:10:17 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite RT @xemu #gamedesign Energy we can leverage from pre-existing player knowledge = energy we can spend on building our own world
Thu Jul 16 23:15:41 +0000 2009
djaffe @bbrathwaite but I see your point and do agree cause games like MOH and COD have a great, pre-defined, commercially loved/understood world.
Thu Jul 16 23:18:20 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
djaffe @bbrathwaite if that were true, then licensed games would be amazing cause the player enters w/tons of knowledge of an already made world...
Thu Jul 16 23:17:26 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
ClickNothing #gamedesign is it funny that no one thinks movies would be better if we added choices as rewards? Maybe 6 choices with a large popcorn?
Thu Jul 16 23:15:59 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite #gamedesign I think part of our narrative challenge is that we also associate games with fun. Imagine if all movies had to be "fun."
Thu Jul 16 23:17:50 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @bbrathwaite #gamedesign ...but on the other hand, the next great game designer is the one who makes a game we want to play that isn't fun
Thu Jul 16 23:24:10 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
djaffe @SorenJohnson right and I just don't think our medium so far has shown a capacity to do deep subjects in an engaging way...
Thu Jul 16 23:31:38 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @djaffe #gamedesign I go back & forth all the time about whether this is possible. Could CIv ever rival Guns Germs & Steel in significance?
Fri Jul 17 01:02:23 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
ClickNothing @SorenJohnson I loved GG&S but I suspect Civ is as significant a work or moreso. It really depends on your definition of significant tho.
Fri Jul 17 01:47:20 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
xemu @ClickNothing @SorenJohnson Hard for civ to be non-fic though. I will say I learned more about WW2 & geography from HOI2 than any book.
Fri Jul 17 03:26:10 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
ibogost @SorenJohnson It's not just a question of the work itself, but also the context. There is no Pulitzer for games. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:05:05 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @ibogost #gamedesign I've always assumed that, with time, great work would demand recognition in society at large. But point taken...
Fri Jul 17 01:12:50 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
SorenJohnson @bbrathwaite #gamedesign But all movies have something in common (engaging?) or else we wouldn't sit through them. Maybe fun is our thing...
Thu Jul 16 23:23:52 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
djaffe @bbrathwaite all movies must be engaging. Same w/ all games. Problem is, making games engaging but not fun has not been done that often/well
Thu Jul 16 23:23:11 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @djaffe #gamedesign Licensed games give us the fiction, but that's only good in early digestion. If the mechanics don't hold up, fail.
Thu Jul 16 23:20:05 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @bbrathwaite ha, cross-tweet with @djaffe
Thu Jul 16 23:25:13 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @sorenjohnson @clinthocking @xemu @harvey1966 Assume you're following him. If not, @djaffe has joined us.
Thu Jul 16 23:24:49 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @djaffe @sorenjohnson #gamedesign But we're afraid to take chances, I think, and cover truly difficult themes. We have so much opportunity.
Thu Jul 16 23:26:43 +0000 2009
djaffe @bbrathwaite i think that's an excuse. People do take chances with themes but most of the games end up dull and boring to most people...
Thu Jul 16 23:27:45 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @djaffe So, where do you see the disconnect them between "take a chance" and "dull and boring"? What happens?
Thu Jul 16 23:32:22 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @bbrathwaite controls but even more: when brain is engaged in solving a problem (i.e. play) the thematic falls away...happens in real life 2
Thu Jul 16 23:35:30 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @djaffe So, we agree here. After you play for 10 mins, your brain's not seeing theme anymore. It's in pattern/mechanic/control.
Thu Jul 16 23:39:43 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @bbrathwaite Agree 100%. Theme falls away fast in games...which is why violent games causing violence is an absurd argument.
Thu Jul 16 23:52:48 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @djaffe I take chances, yes. Others do. When I get hired to do concepts, tho, it's usually pre-defined safe themes I'm given.
Thu Jul 16 23:31:00 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
Harvey1966 @djaffe @bbrathwaite: Great point; in games, there's often too much to focus on. Even getting "motion" right consumes a lot. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:30:23 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
ZenOfDesign Took a day off to run all the errands in life that had accumulated, then rewarded myself playing Rock Band on my newly returned Xbox.
Thu Jul 16 23:34:30 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ZenOfDesign There is an epic #gamedesign discussion going on. Join in.
Thu Jul 16 23:35:54 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
djaffe @xemu the hate for the bigger ones is cause- 4 me- u are no longer playing, you are watching...not that fine a line between both activities
Thu Jul 16 23:34:42 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @djaffe Xenosaga killed cutscenes forever for me. Forever.
Thu Jul 16 23:38:52 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite Amen. Collaborating here w/ Raphael at Arkane, we're eschewing cinematics in favor of in-game, player-driven. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:41:59 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
Harvey1966 Day started w/ DX2 example...systems collided w/ "fiction" in a good way (wrt Health Leech Drone vs "lab worker"). Full circle. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:37:19 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Man, I take a day of PTO, and come back to find a twitter list full of crack. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:42:08 +0000 2009
djaffe I think the trick is to create interactive that is easy enough that you have brain power left to allow emotion/subject matter to engage...
Thu Jul 16 23:42:16 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @djaffe In that sense (easy interactive, leaving brain cycles free), the Sims made me re-think busy-ness and macro-lifestyle. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:45:21 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @Harvey1966 Ugh, SIMS to me had me SO focused on little annoying tasks (fill this bar, keep this bar filled) that the fiction fell away fast
Thu Jul 16 23:50:38 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
bbrathwaite @djaffe @harvey1966 I wonder why I didn't enjoy the Sims, but I love Civ Rev.
Thu Jul 16 23:51:50 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe in that respect, games rite now r like a filmed version of someone reading a contract-2 much focus on only 1 thing the medium can do.
Thu Jul 16 23:43:13 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Compelling art of any genre is reflective. Great books& movies linger in your mind, and you learn from them. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:44:06 +0000 2009
sheldoncarter @djaffe @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Are "safe themes" just another way of asking for fantasy of the familiar? http://tinyurl.com/lp67ex
Thu Jul 16 23:44:40 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @sheldoncarter re safe themes, I am not currently working with anything that would qualify as "safe."
Thu Jul 16 23:48:13 +0000 2009 in reply to sheldoncarter
ZenOfDesign Games are compelling because when they are reflective, it comes from interactivity. Often player learn something about yourself. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:45:05 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Narrative is one possible (and often effective) tool for doing this (at Bioware, we live by that). #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:45:57 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign It's more fun for designers when the mechanics themselves are reflective and narrative is almost absent: Train and nuking in Civ #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:46:39 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite for those following the #gamedesign convo, @ZenofDesignis now in.
Thu Jul 16 23:47:46 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite I'd like to suggest we all to the Fairmont and relax after this convo. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:52:42 +0000 2009
AnjelusX If games are moving to be more narrative focused,Riddle me this, why the hell does the industry seem to ignore quality writers?
Thu Jul 16 23:53:11 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @AnjelusX Increasingly, game teams will embrace writers who embrace interactive narrative systems and reject authorial control. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:59:04 +0000 2009 in reply to AnjelusX
bbrathwaite RT @ZenOfDesign: Compelling art of any genre is reflective. Great books& movies linger in your mind, and you learn from them. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:54:51 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @djaffe @bbrathwaite: I've always felt like the fiction comes and goes, inverse to the moment's problem-solving. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:56:05 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @Harvey1966 @djaffe Yeah, when I need to solve a narrative problem, I think that way. Otherwise, patterns.
Thu Jul 16 23:58:59 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
JKeverne #gamedesign @bbrathwaite Can't pattern matching be inherently meaningful? Majority of human behaviour is based on forms of it after all?
Fri Jul 17 00:05:15 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @JKeverne Pattern matching is more meaningful than story. By matching patterns, we understand narrative, I think.
Fri Jul 17 00:10:35 +0000 2009 in reply to JKeverne
Harvey1966 @djaffe @bbrathwaite: Invariably, when immersed, I become "(sort of) me in this situation" and not the prescribed characters. #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:56:36 +0000 2009
ibogost @Harvey1966 that's empathy, and it's the thing that we should be able to do better than lit/movies, because players enact roles #gamedesign
Thu Jul 16 23:58:15 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
bbrathwaite I wonder how many people are watching the #gamedesign convo now. I've had three skypes and two phone calls about it.
Fri Jul 17 00:02:01 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign @bbrathwaite I will say that the #gamedesign discussion has proven that twitter may be the worst discussion/debate tool on the internet.
Fri Jul 17 00:02:53 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @ZenOfDesign Actually, it was pretty awesome live. If you come late to it and try to follow it's harrowing. Very interesting for me.
Fri Jul 17 00:04:09 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
SorenJohnson @ZenOfDesign #gamedesign ...but I've never seen this type of spontaneous discussion emerge on a forum so quickly. It's not all bad.
Fri Jul 17 00:14:08 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
bbrathwaite @SorenJohnson Yeah, me neither. I really enjoyed it.
Fri Jul 17 00:14:54 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
ibogost @ZenOfDesign I said the same thing to @bbrathwaite just a minute ago, via Skype. :)
Fri Jul 17 00:03:51 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
bschlenker @bbrathwaite Is #gamedesign going to be a regular convo or just a one-off?
Fri Jul 17 00:16:12 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @bschlenker #gamedesign No idea. This discussion between all of us wasn't planned. Just happened.
Fri Jul 17 00:21:53 +0000 2009 in reply to bschlenker
plushapo How much of this debate poorly conjoins personal design style/voice with theory? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:04:38 +0000 2009
ibogost @plushapo Poor Conjunction should be the name of your new game studio.
Fri Jul 17 00:05:43 +0000 2009 in reply to plushapo
jesawyer @bbrathwaite I don't think we're (game designers) afraid to tackle difficult themes; I think we generally just... don't. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:06:27 +0000 2009
ibogost @jesawyer I think that's pretty much right. It's something closer to apathy than fear, inability, or even ennui.
Fri Jul 17 00:08:29 +0000 2009 in reply to jesawyer
ZenOfDesign @jesawyer Really difficult themes oft require narrative with strong authorial control to truly address. Not games' strong suit. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:17:18 +0000 2009 in reply to jesawyer
bpm140 My Scion just turned 10,000 http://bit.ly/W8GXe
Fri Jul 17 00:10:20 +0000 2009
ibogost @bpm140 Time to buy it a new stereo.
Fri Jul 17 00:12:12 +0000 2009 in reply to bpm140
ClickNothing #gamedesign re theme falling away with diff/complexity: reminds of recent talks on Conviction. When we make a spy game whose *mechanics* are
Fri Jul 17 00:12:24 +0000 2009
ClickNothing #gamedesign lie, cheat, steal, betray, decieve instead of rum, jump, shoot, stab with a spy narrativ wrapper - will the theme still fall?
Fri Jul 17 00:13:52 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ClickNothing #gamedesign I think the theme still falls once you grok the mechanics, and that doesn't take long.
Fri Jul 17 00:17:32 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
SorenJohnson @ClickNothing #gamedesign Spore, for example, is about creativity, not evolution.
Fri Jul 17 00:37:16 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
Harvey1966 @SorenJohnson Great point about Spore. The mismatch of MY desire for it to be about evolution really hurt my appreciation of it. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:40:22 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
Ratsofatsorat @SorenJohnson Reminds me, your Stanford slides were really interesting. Would love to have you on Idle Thumbs sometime to talk about that.
Fri Jul 17 00:49:50 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @Ratsofatsorat sure, I'd be happy to come guest. Do you guys have a location or just do it virtually?
Fri Jul 17 00:58:56 +0000 2009 in reply to Ratsofatsorat
IdleThumbs @SorenJohnson We're in San Francisco (our location is, um, my apartment)
Fri Jul 17 01:14:15 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
SorenJohnson @IdleThumbs ok, send me an e-mail and we'll set something up...
Fri Jul 17 01:15:01 +0000 2009 in reply to IdleThumbs
SorenJohnson @ClickNothing #gamedesign that is a great question. Most games are not really "about" their subject matter in any meaningful way.
Fri Jul 17 00:35:55 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
bbrathwaite #gamedesign We should do this again, absurdity of twitter and all. Btw, @theromero joined in.
Fri Jul 17 00:14:25 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Schindlers is powerful because of Schindler's voiced views. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:18:36 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Train is powerful - it's happening to you- but the player may miss the lesson unless you bludgeon him with the point. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:19:00 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ZenOfDesign The player doesn't miss the lesson in Train. Even people watching get it.
Fri Jul 17 00:22:34 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite Cool to see games escape AAA constraints. Train (et al) can experiment 'cause they're not 20 hour console products. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:27:54 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @Harvey1966 I also made them non-digital precisely because of the flack people give games that cover difficult stuff.
Fri Jul 17 00:29:14 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @bbrathwaite Graphic novels escaped that association. The medium was seen as inherently trivializing, but now we have Fun Home. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:32:26 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
ibogost @Harvey1966 That's true, but it also need not be. It just requires the right stomach for $, and the right 1st party negotiation. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:31:09 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
ZenOfDesign @bbrathwaite Yes, but in Train, the point is impossible to miss (unusual in games). How many learn from dropping nukes in Civ? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:33:20 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @ZenOfDesign A lot of people miss the point. They note that it is for 'shock effect' or that it has a 'surprise ending'. Players don't.
Fri Jul 17 00:35:34 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
ibogost @ZenOfDesign I don't think so. Not sure if you read my piece on it, but I say why there: http://bit.ly/Sf9fx #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:21:55 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
bbrathwaite #gamedesign How narrative can affect things in unexpected ways: Abe Lincoln cage fighting like a badass. http://bit.ly/29A49j
Fri Jul 17 00:24:54 +0000 2009
RandomNickname @bbrathwaite Abe might be a cage fighter, but he can't wrassle velociraptors like Bea Arthur can: http://is.gd/1BA90 (but then, who can?)
Fri Jul 17 02:02:01 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @RandomNickname Bea had the touch, baby.
Fri Jul 17 02:03:01 +0000 2009 in reply to RandomNickname
bbrathwaite @jesawyer Doug's article was excellent (FADT right?)
Fri Jul 17 00:26:50 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Interactivity is a double-edged sword. The more your game has going on, the more likely that serious issues get lost. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:34:10 +0000 2009
jesawyer @ZenOfDesign I disagree. I think giving choices w/in the context of a difficult theme is what really draws attention to it. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:36:55 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
tylermcculloch @jesawyer there is a difference between choices and being able to do what you want. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:38:32 +0000 2009 in reply to jesawyer
jesawyer @tylermcculloch As long as you have distinct, meaningful choices relating to the theme, does it matter? Or is it all or nothing? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:41:10 +0000 2009 in reply to tylermcculloch
WyattEpp @jesawyer What the player wants isn't necessarily within the scope of the theme, though. Pacifism in GTA? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:47:48 +0000 2009 in reply to jesawyer
ZenOfDesign @WyattEpp Games only teach what the simulation allows for - and assumes the sim teaches a valid lesson, which isn't always true. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:00:58 +0000 2009 in reply to WyattEpp
bbrathwaite #gamedesign Okay, I'm out. I have a fuckton of work to do. Enjoyed this a lot.
Fri Jul 17 00:38:42 +0000 2009
ibogost He do the police in different voices: http://yfrog.com/52ganp
Fri Jul 17 00:39:10 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 Some spam just caused me to see this blog post from '99 which made me WANT TO RE-INSTALL AND PLAY SYSTEM SHOCK 2. http://tinyurl.com/nxah8f
Fri Jul 17 00:44:32 +0000 2009
KeenanW @Harvey1966 Do you still feel that way about SS2?
Fri Jul 17 00:55:35 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @KeenanW Do I still feel like System Shock (and System Shock 2) are some of the best games ever made? Absolutely.
Fri Jul 17 00:59:01 +0000 2009 in reply to KeenanW
KeenanW @Harvey1966 You and me both!
Fri Jul 17 01:00:33 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @KeenanW Most of the people at Arkane absolutely love System Shock, Thief, et al. "Immersive sim" games...first person w/ depth.
Fri Jul 17 01:04:38 +0000 2009 in reply to KeenanW
eXxy @Harvey1966 In a world where I have free time, I would, too. Stopped playing it as a kid cos it freaked me out.
Fri Jul 17 00:54:50 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @eXxy Cyborg midwives...some of the scariest game enemies ever. (Thief zombies up there too.) #EricBrosius
Fri Jul 17 00:56:54 +0000 2009 in reply to eXxy
eXxy @Harvey1966 No, man. Monkeys. MONKEYS. ;_;
Fri Jul 17 01:05:45 +0000 2009 in reply to Harvey1966
Harvey1966 @eXxy Admiral Bananas?
Fri Jul 17 01:08:16 +0000 2009 in reply to eXxy
bbrathwaite Wow. This design convo sent me over 1,000 followers. Hello everyone. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:46:48 +0000 2009
XanderSliwinski @bbrathwaite I hope you'll remember all us little people when you're Twitter famous.
Fri Jul 17 00:58:25 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @XanderSliwinski @leighalexander <3
Fri Jul 17 01:03:59 +0000 2009 in reply to XanderSliwinski
bbrathwaite RT @roxaloxa: @bbrathwaite i feel like you really just want more than @ibogost, and then you'll be happy.
Fri Jul 17 00:50:14 +0000 2009
raphkoster Impressed by how hard to follow the #gamedesign thread is, because of twitter's limitations. :)
Fri Jul 17 00:53:49 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @raphkoster #gamedesign try this: http://orbit.vect.org/misc/gamedesign.html
Fri Jul 17 01:09:55 +0000 2009 in reply to raphkoster
bbrathwaite @SorenJohnson Sort of. That list is missing all @djaffe comments as well as others who weren't doing the #gamedesign thing
Fri Jul 17 01:15:30 +0000 2009 in reply to SorenJohnson
AtmanRising @bbrathwaite A crazy thought just crossed my mind: could a board game be played over Twitter? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 00:59:57 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @AtmanRising Yes. It would be just like play by mail games, I suspect. I don't know of one specifically written for the medium.
Fri Jul 17 01:02:39 +0000 2009 in reply to AtmanRising
Dlangar Watched the conversation explode on twitter in #gamedesign. Pretty amazing thing this afternoon.
Fri Jul 17 01:00:25 +0000 2009
xemu @Dlangar Yeah, wasn't that cool? I got to help spark a popular hashtag in realtime! Now *that's* social gameplay. :)
Fri Jul 17 03:31:48 +0000 2009 in reply to Dlangar
ZenOfDesign Still, there ARE people who play GTA for the gimmick professions (Taxi, Ambulance) - including some who didn't set out to. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:02:44 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Perhaps these players are learning something about their own thirst for violence in a violent world with non-violent options. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:03:13 +0000 2009
flantz Spent the day brainstorming with the guy who wrote the movie The Game while surreptitiously reading #gamedesign tweets re. story v. play.
Fri Jul 17 01:06:07 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @flantz Tell him that I loved that movie! (The Game.)
Fri Jul 17 01:09:29 +0000 2009 in reply to flantz
SorenJohnson Cool... RT @in_orbit #gamedesign in_orbit Today's #gamedesign stuff made me compile it into a threaded format: http://bit.ly/cdfQK
Fri Jul 17 01:09:28 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 Got 2 more missions to update. One more hour before food? I suspect breath is bad...need gum.
Fri Jul 17 01:10:14 +0000 2009
Harvey1966 @in_orbit: Thanks for putting this into a threaded format: http://bit.ly/cdfQK #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:12:40 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite #gamedesign If someone would add in the @djaffe comments and repost, that would be awesome.
Fri Jul 17 01:24:24 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite Could we get a roll call of pro designers in the #gamedesign discussion?
Fri Jul 17 01:30:01 +0000 2009
gtez @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Do Producers count? ;)
Fri Jul 17 01:30:43 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @gtez Sure. My worst producer thought he was a designer. It was kind of sad and scary. He tried to use excel and killed my formulas.
Fri Jul 17 01:33:18 +0000 2009 in reply to gtez
gtez @bbrathwaite oh and I hate excel.
Fri Jul 17 01:37:57 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @gtez Then you are probably a great producer. :)
Fri Jul 17 01:45:34 +0000 2009 in reply to gtez
bbrathwaite roll call - like title, company, current or last project #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:30:25 +0000 2009
ClickNothing @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Clint Hocking, Ubisoft, Creative Director, Far Cry 2, current: unannounced.
Fri Jul 17 01:50:10 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
JulianSpillane @ClickNothing Hey Clint, did we meet at the Ubisoft shabu shabu dinner in Tokyo this year? I was there with Tommy Francois...
Fri Jul 17 01:54:21 +0000 2009 in reply to ClickNothing
ClickNothing @JulianSpillane yeah, I was there with LP
Fri Jul 17 02:20:29 +0000 2009 in reply to JulianSpillane
invisisci @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Cameron Brown, Creative Director at Pandemic (Mercenaries series). But I'm late to the party =]
Fri Jul 17 01:52:01 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
Vexir @invisisci lol, your status just got you a follower, despite your current lack of contribution to the conversation :P #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:53:42 +0000 2009 in reply to invisisci
bbrathwaite @Vexir #gamedesign I asked for the roll call for precisely that reason. It's good to be connected with other devs.
Fri Jul 17 01:55:24 +0000 2009 in reply to Vexir
pvaughan007 @bbrathwaite thanks for giving back to the design community. Following you here after ur gamaS article led to seeing todays cool design talk
Fri Jul 17 01:43:23 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @pvaughan007 thank you for saying that. much appreciated.
Fri Jul 17 01:48:06 +0000 2009 in reply to pvaughan007
NicoleLazzaro @Vexir The language of games must evolve. Together we discover what connects emotion to player choices. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:46:11 +0000 2009
AnjelusX @NicoleLazzaro Emotion in games draws to mind, my tears from Final Fantasy VII and the hilarity of Disagea's horse weiner item #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:48:58 +0000 2009 in reply to NicoleLazzaro
NicoleLazzaro @AnjelusX Exactly, tears can come from the story, but also from the choices players made in game. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 01:53:25 +0000 2009 in reply to AnjelusX
IanSchreiber @NicoleLazzaro Can you give an example of a game that really did that right, where the player's tears came from gameplay and not a cutscene?
Fri Jul 17 01:55:48 +0000 2009 in reply to NicoleLazzaro
bbrathwaite @IanSchreiber Are you serious with that question? Dude, like you've seen it.
Fri Jul 17 01:59:17 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
IanSchreiber @bbrathwaite I meant video games.
Fri Jul 17 02:00:46 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @IanSchreiber Electricist. What's the difference? Argue your limitations.
Fri Jul 17 02:02:24 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
djaffe why the hell can I not follow #gamedesign? I see the page on twitter but no FOLLOW button...wtf?!?
Fri Jul 17 02:06:31 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @djaffe if you use tweetdeck, you can open up a separate page for it and it sort of looks the same. I wish I could follow #gamedesign, too.
Fri Jul 17 02:08:15 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @bbrathwaite I do use tweetdeck...so what how do I open a sep. page?
Fri Jul 17 02:09:24 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
djaffe Ok I think I got it...so now when people post with #gamedesign in the tweet, it will appear there?
Fri Jul 17 02:10:26 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @djaffe Yes, it will. So, next time we do a pick up discussion like this, just include the #gamedesign tag, and it's in.
Fri Jul 17 02:13:01 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe nice- thx all!
Fri Jul 17 02:14:32 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Damion Schubert, Bioware Austin, currently lead systems designer on Star Wars: the Old Republic #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:17:18 +0000 2009
Patorama Pat Guarino, User Interface Designer, Crystal Dynamics, Tomb Raider: Underworld. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:21:24 +0000 2009
djaffe @Patorama totally digging Tomb Raider:Underworld! Got shafted by many but I think it's really great! Thank you!
Fri Jul 17 02:24:18 +0000 2009 in reply to Patorama
bbrathwaite Brenda Brathwaite, Game designer, Secret Master Plan. Currently working on MKW. Recent Train and Siochan Leat. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:22:02 +0000 2009
djaffe #gamedesign David Jaffe, Eat Sleep Play, Co-Owner/Director/Designer, RECENT GAMES: Twisted Metal, Calling All Cars, God of War.
Fri Jul 17 02:23:41 +0000 2009
JohngPR @djaffe Didn't you also have a hand in War of the Monsters?
Fri Jul 17 02:44:06 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @JohngPR War of Monsters was my concept but that's all I contributed.
Fri Jul 17 02:54:17 +0000 2009 in reply to JohngPR
pmera @invisisci #gamedesign That's why I see Fumito Ueda as a point of reference when approaching the theme of pure video game narrative.
Fri Jul 17 02:23:54 +0000 2009
djaffe @PMera His games work because he takes stock emotional cues that don'
Fri Jul 17 02:24:49 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
djaffe @PMera His games work because he takes powerful yet stock emotional cues that don't require lots of processing and lays a great game over it
Fri Jul 17 02:25:11 +0000 2009
djaffe In many ways, his wind and ambiance and minimal vibe is a cliche- albeit a great one- that players already know from elsewhere...
Fri Jul 17 02:26:10 +0000 2009
djaffe so the emotion he KIND of gets for 'free' because he's building it from elements that are already emotional to us from other mediums/stories
Fri Jul 17 02:26:43 +0000 2009
iamcool388 @djaffe Serious questions David: 1. Which do you prefer playing, & 2. which do you think is more impressive? ICO or Shadow of the Colossus?
Fri Jul 17 02:32:38 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @iamcool388 Personally I think ICO is the better game by far. Top 5 games of all time for me.
Fri Jul 17 02:54:55 +0000 2009 in reply to iamcool388
djaffe It's licensing emotional elements versus characters from movies or comics...and I think it's brilliant! :)
Fri Jul 17 02:27:02 +0000 2009
xemu @djaffe I was always amazed how much we got out of the "free" history license in Age of Empires. Lots of content & icons to use...
Fri Jul 17 03:27:27 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
masterninja @djaffe I dont know if your gonna answer but uhm...is there a chance for another twisted metal coming from you and your studio? :D
Fri Jul 17 02:53:53 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @masterninja Yes, there is a chance of that.
Fri Jul 17 02:57:24 +0000 2009 in reply to masterninja
SorenJohnson #gamedesign Soren Johnson, EA Maxis, Designer/Programmer, Unannounced strategy title
Fri Jul 17 02:27:12 +0000 2009
pmera @djaffe #gamedesign is based deeply in the narrative Ueda is trying to offer players.
Fri Jul 17 02:32:20 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera game design is based deeply in game mechanics. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:35:36 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
pmera @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Rules are important, but in some cases narrative is as important and should be considered in creating said rules.:p
Fri Jul 17 02:37:58 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera The topic is critical and will tell you the mechanics it needs if you listen. Narrative is a wrapper on mechanics, tho.
Fri Jul 17 02:39:57 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
UmarifficCKzzle @PMera #gamedesign Fully agreed. That would be like wrapping a narrative around the cinematography of a film. (cont...)
Fri Jul 17 02:44:22 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
bbrathwaite @UmarifficCKzzle @pmera Your metaphor is off. The projector = the rules. Once the film is rolling, you have the dynamics and then you get XP
Fri Jul 17 02:46:34 +0000 2009 in reply to UmarifficCKzzle
bbrathwaite @PMera The topic is critical and will tell you the mechanics it needs if you listen. Narrative is a wrapper on mechanics, tho. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:40:22 +0000 2009
pmera @bbrathwaite #gamedesign I think considering narrative a wrapper on mechanics is the reason games don't have yet found their own narrative.
Fri Jul 17 02:42:15 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera @gamedesign Games find their own narrative whenever they are played. You make it.
Fri Jul 17 02:43:21 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
bbrathwaite Regarding rules vs. narrative, it's a cultural thing, too. Americans are heavy into theme. Euros moreso into mechanics. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:42:23 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite Someone like Knizia re-themes the same mechanics again and again. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:42:57 +0000 2009
StewartWoods @bbrathwaite Re: Knizia - Agreed he re-uses mechanics a lot but I don't know that he's largely responsible for the theme, moreso publishers
Fri Jul 17 02:47:03 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @StewartWoods Totally. Knizia's stuff is reskinned all the time, often by others.
Fri Jul 17 02:47:41 +0000 2009 in reply to StewartWoods
pmera @bbrathwaite #gamedesign But that's just an aspiring game designer's opinion. :p
Fri Jul 17 02:43:21 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera #gamedesign The convo you and I are having was the core of our earlier epic discussion that started this. Others share your view. :)
Fri Jul 17 02:45:23 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
ZenOfDesign #gamedesign I don't think anyone says that game designer should only use rules, not narrative. But using rules is unique to our genre.
Fri Jul 17 02:44:37 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @ZenOfDesign Right. A game needs to have a fundamental set of rules. These can rise from the narrative/theme base, of course. #gamedesign.
Fri Jul 17 02:49:05 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
bbrathwaite @UmarifficCKzzle Your metaphor is off. The projector=the rules. Once film is rolling, you have the dynamics and then you get XP #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:47:16 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite I get sucked into the #gamedesign discussion again. I have #gamedesign to do for #dollars so I better #ceaseanddesist.
Fri Jul 17 02:52:11 +0000 2009
oizys @bbrathwaite to apply @ibogost 's fajita metaphor: is GURPS a game? or is GURPS Space the game (rules+theme). or are they both #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:57:26 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @oizys LOL. @ibogost's fajita metaphor? He will be happy that it lived, metaphorically.
Fri Jul 17 02:59:38 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
NicoleLazzaro The game mechanic *is* the moral of a game. The timeless successful strategy resonates more than narrative. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:53:36 +0000 2009
SorenJohnson @NicoleLazzaro Completely agree that winning strategies _become_ the story of a game. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 02:58:02 +0000 2009 in reply to NicoleLazzaro
EmikoJaffe RT @ByronKatie How do I know that I don’t need what I want? I don’t have it.<-- making peace with 'what is'=powerful
Fri Jul 17 02:56:30 +0000 2009
djaffe @EmikoJaffe http://bit.ly/Maq4V
Fri Jul 17 02:58:33 +0000 2009 in reply to EmikoJaffe
EmikoJaffe @djaffe hmmm. . . do you think Sinead co-wrote that with @ByronKatie ? ya never know . . .
Fri Jul 17 03:02:21 +0000 2009 in reply to djaffe
djaffe @EmikoJaffe It was actually something her mother- who had died recently- said to her in a dream.
Fri Jul 17 03:03:32 +0000 2009 in reply to EmikoJaffe
pmera @AnjelusX #gamedesign That game design is not in the rules or narrative or graphic design, but in the emergence that comes from all.
Fri Jul 17 03:05:00 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera #gamedesign is the rules. Narrative = the narrative. Play = the stuff that rises from all.
Fri Jul 17 03:06:32 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
bbrathwaite Via @jofsharp. Can you name an example of a ruleless game?
Fri Jul 17 03:09:59 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite #gamedesign Via @jofsharp. Can you name an example of a ruleless game? (I keep forgetting to add the hashtag)
Fri Jul 17 03:10:30 +0000 2009
TragicGeek #gamedeaign @bbrathwaite @jofsharp no, you can't. It's impossible. Why? "No Rules" is a rule. No fixed rules is the closest.
Fri Jul 17 03:39:09 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
bbrathwaite @TragicGeek You have been fully restored to health. Well said.
Fri Jul 17 03:39:48 +0000 2009 in reply to TragicGeek
oizys @bbrathwaite I'd submit that 'love', 'war' and 'life' have gamey-ness with only implicit (societal) rules, none explicit #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:18:16 +0000 2009 in reply to bbrathwaite
ZenOfDesign @oizys "All's fair in love in war." That would imply there are rules, made to be broken. =)
Fri Jul 17 03:26:03 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
pmera @bbrathwaite To me, #gamedesign is managing the emergence of this system created by all the different aspects of a game. :p
Fri Jul 17 03:10:45 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @PMera #gamedesign We actually agree, you know. Okay, seriously. I have to get freaking work done. This discussion has a tractor beam.
Fri Jul 17 03:12:23 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
jofsharp @ ibogost I counter the fajita conundrum Is there anything natural about Chicken McNuggets?
Fri Jul 17 03:15:53 +0000 2009
ibogost @jofsharp arguably, Chicken McNuggets are no less unnatural than seitan.
Fri Jul 17 03:40:53 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
bbrathwaite @ibogost @jofsharp I think chicken mcnuggets are little fajitas.
Fri Jul 17 03:43:32 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
jofsharp @ibogost What? Seitan is wheat gluten and water. McNuggets are....
Fri Jul 17 03:41:57 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
ibogost @jofsharp Something and water.
Fri Jul 17 03:45:48 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
jofsharp @ibogost Something chemically and engineered and water. Ironically, I bet there are soy beans in mcnuggets.
Fri Jul 17 03:48:31 +0000 2009 in reply to ibogost
ibogost @jofsharp Michael Pollen's _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ lists the ingredients of a McNugget. Excerpt here: http://bit.ly/zJGmy
Fri Jul 17 03:55:55 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
bbrathwaite Shutting tweetdeck so I can focus. This is like Civ Rev compelling.
Fri Jul 17 03:17:17 +0000 2009
djaffe http://bit.ly/16P8YABehind the scenes theme park stuff! Impossible to resist! LOVE this stuff :)
Fri Jul 17 03:21:04 +0000 2009
xemu #gamedesign Rob "Xemu" Fermier, Robot Entertainment. Programmer who pretends to do design sometimes. System Shock 1&2, Age of Myth.
Fri Jul 17 03:28:23 +0000 2009
ZenOfDesign Rules are not the killer feature of games, though. That's interactivity. Many games try to be rule-light or allow rule-breaking. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:31:49 +0000 2009
IanSchreiber @ZenOfDesign Many things in life are interactive but not games. My cat is interactive. There has to be more to it. #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:36:13 +0000 2009 in reply to ZenOfDesign
ZenOfDesign @IanSchreiber I didn't say that ONLY games were interactive. It's where the designer starts, though, it determines player verbs.#zenofdesign
Fri Jul 17 03:40:31 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
oizys At the risk of sounding philosophical, is a pile of rules that has yet to be interacted with a 'game' yet? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:36:16 +0000 2009
pmera @oizys #gamedesign ahahahaha... I believe that the process of piling up those rules could already be considered a game. xD
Fri Jul 17 03:38:37 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
oizys @pmera #gamedesign is the greatest game of all, I believe.
Fri Jul 17 03:40:13 +0000 2009 in reply to pmera
IanSchreiber @oizys @pmera Can game design be a game? @bbrathwaite wrote an Escapist article on the subject: http://bit.ly/L1Xbu #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:42:25 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
bbrathwaite @IanSchreiber #gamedesign My first thought was, "I did?" I forgot about that article.
Fri Jul 17 03:44:20 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
xemu #gamedesign @djaffe licensed games *could* be among the most compelling games because you have such intimate knowledge of world
Fri Jul 17 03:41:42 +0000 2009
xemu #gamedesign @djaffe also characters/enviros that are compelling even w/o interactivity. F-ed up $$ motivation outside game hose them IMO.
Fri Jul 17 03:43:14 +0000 2009
jofsharp #gamedesign Whilst you all have a head of steam and your thinking hats on: why does (or doesn't) art history matter for games and game dev?
Fri Jul 17 03:44:03 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @jofsharp #gamedesign and art history? So, I am very inspired in my games by the work of Jackson Pollock. Wished others studied art, too.
Fri Jul 17 03:48:17 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
bbrathwaite @jofsharp New topic - art history and games. It matters to me *a lot*. Studying art history has allowed me to view games in broader scope.
Fri Jul 17 03:47:37 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
oizys @jofsharp #gamedesign yes, because games are art
Fri Jul 17 03:46:28 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
jofsharp @oizys It is not enough to say games are art. Few beyond the industry and players believe that. While few question painting in that way.
Fri Jul 17 03:51:52 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
oizys @jofsharp much we call art today was not called art when it was created. I think our reluctance to call it art slows the process #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:53:47 +0000 2009 in reply to jofsharp
IanSchreiber @oizys @jofsharp So when and how do we start calling game design "art"? And how to do this w/o confusing 3d animators? #GameDesign
Fri Jul 17 03:55:48 +0000 2009 in reply to oizys
bbrathwaite @IanSchreiber #gamedesign I started calling game design a cognitive art a year or so ago, and then games an artform shortly after.
Fri Jul 17 04:00:34 +0000 2009 in reply to IanSchreiber
ZenOfDesign #gamedesign Because twitter makes my eyes bleed: "What is fun?" discussion thread: http://bit.ly/zpRPG
Fri Jul 17 03:46:59 +0000 2009
UmarifficCKzzle @bbrathwaite #gamedesign Actually I went to school for art, and am easily more versed in that, rather than game design, haha.
Fri Jul 17 03:49:48 +0000 2009
bbrathwaite @UmarifficCKzzle any artist affect your designs in particular? #gamedesign
Fri Jul 17 03:52:23 +0000 2009 in reply to UmarifficCKzzle
xemu #gamedesign @Harvey1966 inre: writers unfortunately I think the trend is more to use them to promote very traditional authorial content
Fri Jul 17 03:51:23 +0000 2009
xemu Wow, I step away from the comp for a few hours and the gamedesign thread explodes! I had a party to go to people -- a party with PRETZELS.
Fri Jul 17 03:57:33 +0000 2009